Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Before anyone becomes a professional writer, they're doing something to put food on the table. So, like, whatever that day job is to be, to not let that exhaust you and then still go home and work on your own stuff, like, that's really what it takes to make it into the professional writing game. I have a couple ethos when I write, like, the stuff that really, like, excites me. One is more black weirdos. There's like three categories of representation that I feel like we see with black folks. The people you meet on the street every day are not the. The people we're seeing on television.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: In Today's episode of NAACP's Inside the Industry, we're taking a look at what it takes to become a working television writer from someone who's been in the writing room of today's top franchises. Today I'll be speaking with writer and producer Chuck Hayward. He's written for shows like Ted Lasso, Wandavision, Dear White People, and many more. In this conversation, we break down how writers secure the bag, how to find your voice, and how to sustain your career through uncertainty. I'm your Host, Ariana Drummond, NAACPs inside the industry.
Chuck, thank you so much for joining us for Inside the Industry. We're really excited to have you on today.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, of course. So having to work on shows like W Division, Ted Lasso, and Dear White People, what do you think sets you apart as a writer? In those rooms?
[00:01:25] Speaker A: There's demographic things that set me apart just based on who I am, you know, my age, my. My gender, my sexuality, all that kind of stuff that like, give me specific my. Where I'm from. From Wilmington, Delaware. Like, that gives me a perspective.
Having gone to a PWI and not an hbcu, like, that gives me a different perspective. So, like, I think it's just the collection of all your bits that it makes you. So it's like, it's not that, like I stand out so much more than anybody else. It's just like it makes everybody really individual. If it's a functioning, A well functioning room, right, where they encourage you to like, put yourself into it, then everybody's individual kind of superpowers really get to get to shine.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: So what has been.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Sorry, but I do, I will say, like, I do love to keep the mood light. So I'm a joker around in the room a lot. And I'll always like, you know, be asking people about themselves and what they did on the weekend and like, what their kids are up to. Like, it's Just fun to, like, have that banner that, like, loosens people up.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: So I like that.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: And I like to support other writers in the room, too. So, like, if somebody's a quieter person and, you know, they pitched something and I didn't quite. Nobody else quite heard it. I'm like, hey, so and so said such and such, you know, whatever. Like, just trying to make sure everybody, like, feels empowered and gets their voices heard.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: I love that. That's beautiful.
So what has been one of your favorite shows to walk on so far?
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Your white people, for sure. It was my favorite. I worked with. I got to work with Justin Simeon, who was, you know, a friend of mine before that, and Yvette Lee Bowser, who, like, was an idol of mine before I was even in the industry. Like, I remember seeing her name on TV when I, like, I was in my teenage years. And so being able to work with her and now, like, call her a friend is, like, amazing.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: That's a beautiful moment.
Full, full circle.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: So can you tell us about. I know before we started, you were telling us a little bit about some of the projects that you're working on. Can you give us a little teaser on what you're working on right now?
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. I'm working on a project with Lee Daniels right now. It's called Philly Christmas. It's for Disney. And it's. It's basically. It's a. It's a period piece, so it's a 70s musical based in Philadelphia that's kind of, like, based around Lee's life and childhood. So Christmas, like. And it's fun. Like, writing Christmas stuff is really fun because it allows you, like, that spirit is. Becomes alive in you different times of the year. I know it sounds really cheesy, but, like, you do have to get yourself into that frame of mind. And so it is nice. It adds a little bit of, like, pep to your step or like, a little, you know, sunshine to your day. Because then you start, you're writing stuff like, oh, the Christmas spirit can be with you all year long. And you're like, oh, I guess I have to. I must believe that if I'm putting it there.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: That's cute, though.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: I love that. And Christmas is, like, literally the best time of year.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: So, yeah, absolutely. Everybody's nicer, everybody's off work, school. Like, yeah, the traffic's less. That's in la, man. What more can you ask for?
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Okay, so I know we talked a little bit earlier about the writers room. When you're a writer that gets staffed on a television show.
What are you usually required to do beyond, like, just writing?
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Beyond just writing.
There's, I guess it's all included in writing. So, like, I would say coming up with ideas, sharing stuff that's happening in your personal life that, you know, that's germane to whatever the show topic is, that's part of it, but that's. I mean, that's part of writing. But then once you get into production, then you'll be on set producing your episode, hopefully. So that's in. That's you're going to production meetings and you're interacting with all the department heads and you're giving them clarification on what, how the show should look. You're talking to the production designer about how this person's room should look and feel. You're talking to costumes about how this new character that you wrote should appear, like how she should come up, you know, come across based on the wardrobe and then, yeah, basically all the things that. Just giving people, filling in the little minutia that is not on the page to the. To the people who are making it happen.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: So who picks who, like, writes which episode?
[00:05:23] Speaker A: Your showrunner will.
Showrunner will. Usually some of them will plot it out beforehand, like at the beginning of a season before we even get started. And some will, along the way, divvy it up based on experience level, based on, you know, who is a fast writer or based on somebody who has direct personal connection with that episode that we're thinking about. Or, or sometimes, like if there's a younger writer or then a support staff member, like a writer's assistant or script coordinator, they're, hey, we want to give this person a script or a credit. So we'll pair them up with one of the older writers, and so that way they get a credit and they get some money. So, yeah, there's like, there's all sorts of different ways to do it. And what I found is on for shorter orders, usually the showrunner knows shorter orders meaning like only 10 episodes or eight episodes a season versus like 20. So for 20, it's easier to just kind of go more by the seat of your pants. But for smaller ones, like you have a certain number of people on the staff, and so you want to make sure that like all your producer level people get a script, or you want to make sure your staff writer gets a script. There's things that you want to make sure happen that will affect how you
[00:06:38] Speaker B: allocate and how many writers are usually in for a short episode.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: There's been as few as four and as many as 13. So. Yeah, it just depends on the budget of the show and usually the color of the cast.
Usually the darker you get, the smaller the room tends to be.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: That's so sad. So sad. Problem we need to work on.
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: From your perspective, what do you think separates a professional writer from somebody who's really like, just passionate about writing?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: I think it is the hunger, I guess, like, if you're. If. Because before anyone becomes a professional writer, there's doing something to put food on the table. So, like, whatever that day job is to be, to not let that exhaust you and then still go home and work on your own stuff. Like, that's really what it takes to. To make it into the professional writing game. You have to like.
Yeah. You know, and it's harder if you have a family or like, you know, anything like that. Like, it's so. So it's the, the. The thirst to, like, make it a part of your day, regardless of what else you have going on.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: And.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah, just the, I guess the hunger to tell stories. Like, the hunger to get of your voice out there or to get, to get, like to see something in society and then want to tell a story about it. Like, that's, that's pretty cool. Versus, like, you just want to write to. To noodle around. Yeah. I think if you, if it's something you're going to make a profession, it's got to be something that. This has to be something you're passionate about. You don't have to be passionate about like insurance sales. But, like, you know, this is something that has to, like, you have to wake up in the morning excited about it, like, and, or. Or have trouble getting to sleep at night because you, you can't turn your brain off and you have all these ideas and like we, before we started recording about how terrible a sleeper I am, but the. It's the best feeling when I'm like, oh, I gotta get up. I'm gonna forget this idea. And like, I just start. I'll write for another half hour or something and then go back to sleep like that. Nothing feels better than that.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: That's amazing, though. Just to wake up in the middle of the night, be like, look, I'm gonna write this. But to your point, it's just like, I'd rather just get it all out
[00:08:45] Speaker A: because otherwise I'm not gonna remember. No, if it's, you know, especially if I'm trying to sleep, like, if I'm trying to get down, it's a real. It's a real. You know, I won't be able to sleep until I get this out down on paper.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: So I want to take a second and just go back to the start of your career.
When did you first or where did your love for writing first start?
[00:09:09] Speaker A: My love for writing came from sucking at sports and just sitting inside the house all day watching TV and movies and playing video games while my friends were out being boys.
So that really became, like, my intro to the world. Like, my. My, My. You know, I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware, so, like. And it was a very sort of myopic. My. My view of the world was pretty small, so it was a great way to just expose myself to different people, different thoughts. And, like, humor really excited me from a really young age. So, like, seeing people's. Different people's take on humor and how humor comes from different feels from different countries or in different socioeconomic levels or whatever, that really was like, yo, I can't think of anything else that I want to do for a L.
I took a film studies class in high school. It was like, the first time it was offered, and I was like, oh, this is a career. Like, yeah, that's what I wanted. Like, there's nothing else I want to do. The only other things that I felt I could do, or maybe like, advertising, which is still kind of writing, and then I like politics. So, like that. But it would be on the speechwriting or something like that. It would be some type of communication based.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Was there a defining moment that really, like, started you on your trajectory at
[00:10:25] Speaker A: all or so, like, the comedies, I think that really motivated me were, like, the Naked Gun and Airplane and Boomerang we were talking about earlier, like, just these movies that. The movie Life with Eddie Murphy. Like, there's just some movies that are so perfect comedically where you're just like, how the hell did they do that? And you're like. Like that. Just sort of aiming for that. And also Harlem Nights and Coming to America. Yeah, sorry, I forgot those.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's gotta name those.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah, y. Of course. I mean, like, this. The ones that you watch a hundred times over and over and over again.
It was. Those are what pushed me to be like, I got to do this. And then when I got older, it's Always Sunny in Philadelphia came out on. On fx. And I was like, oh, we're doing that now. I was like, this is exciting. So that got me excited about tv.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Nice. So talking about fx, what was the decision along the way that kind of took you from an aspiring writer to a professional writer.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: What are the decisions or what decision
[00:11:24] Speaker B: or what happened that took you from like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this to. I'm actually, like, in it.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Well, I majored in tv, radio and film in college. So, like, I knew before college that that's. This is what I wanted to do. I wanted to direct and write, but writing was like, you didn't have to find a camera and a crew and everything to write. So, like, that was just easier for me. And I just. That's how I fell in love with it. So, like, when I came out here to la, I knew, like, you have to work your way up as an assistant. So I started doing that for. I did that for, like, nine years and then finally got hired to write. So that was, like, the decision was made when I was, like, 16.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that.
So what do you think inspires your writing at its core? Like, what inspires you?
[00:12:12] Speaker A: I'm inspired by. I always say I have a couple ethos when I write. Like, the stuff that really, like, excites me. So one is more black weirdos.
We. I feel like we have such a. There's, like, three categories of representation that I feel like we see with black folks, and we're just a lot different than that. Like, especially, like, the people you meet on the street every day are not the people we're seeing on television.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: No.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Ever.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: We're not a monolith.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: What's that?
[00:12:40] Speaker B: I was like, we're not a monolith.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that especially with these younger generations who are a little bit more individualistic, like, there are so many more black weirdos now. And, like, the only.
Dude, I'm saying, like, the only people they have to look up to is what, like, Andre 3000 and Erykah Badu. Like, who? Who. Who else?
So, like, yeah, I support that wholeheartedly. And then also kind of like, is there. Is there anything that I'm seeing in society or in, you know, in our communities or whatever that I think is messed up and needs to be fixed or that I think is awesome and needs to be highlighted a little bit more?
And is. And is it. Is it a story that we haven't heard a hundred thousand times? And that last part is what gets me in trouble, because they like to buy things that they've seen a lot of times before. So while the innovative energy is great for the audience, they usually don't get to see it these days because it gets.
Gets put through the studio system. Or gets put through an IP that might not be exactly right on their heart, you know?
[00:13:43] Speaker B: No, 100%.
So I know when we created this series, we really wanted to be a blueprint for people just navigating the industry.
And I know you talked about it a little bit before, and of course, everybody's journey is going to be a little differently, but for someone on the outside, can you walk us through the writing career ladder and share what maybe some writers might get stuck or.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Yes.
So I think. I know a lot of writers get stuck. I got stuck with setting, like, real rigid time goals for yourself because a lot of this stuff is out of your control. So it's like, it's good to set goals for yourself in terms of, like, finish this script by this date. That's awesome. But for me, what. What tore my soul out for most of my adult life was like, I. I'm 30 years old now. I should be in. I should own a home like everybody else I grew up with. I should be doing that. I should be driving this. I shouldn't be, you know, praying every time they. I swipe my credit card at a store and hoping that it doesn't get. You know, I mean, that's real.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Like, no, I. I literally had a breakdown yesterday. I'm not gonna lie.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Listen, it. It happened.
The new thing is like, when a fraud thing comes up and you're like, no, no, no, I'm good right now. I swear to God. I've been looking. I've been on top of my stuff, like. And so, yeah, that scares me a lot. But, yeah, comparing yourself to the trajectories of.
Of people that are in the industry or not in the industry is a killer. It will. It will destroy you. It will suck. Your ability to be creative and to be like, a real open conduit through which ideas flow.
Yeah, that's. That's really harmful.
Also, getting married to one project, like, you. You have to let it. At a certain point, you have to let it go. You have to stop. Be like, this project is finished. And I will, you know, I'll be sending it around. But while I'm doing that, while I'm trying to network it or whatever, I'm writing something else.
That way you just keep yourself on a good rhythm. And look, I know life. Lifes. And so, like, I can't. I can't be like, oh, write every day. You have to, right? Every single day. And because I don't. I should, but I understand. But that's another thing that you set yourself up by. With an unrealistic expectation of yourself that you can just constantly let yourself down on.
So, yeah, be. Be diligent, but be kind to you.
[00:16:08] Speaker B: I love those gems. I know somebody got something from that therapy too.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: I highly recommend therapy for everyone.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: I always say mental health is super important nowadays.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: Well, not just important for you to like survive, but it's really important for you to get inside the heads of your characters and make sure that they are making choices that are like a real person would do and a real person in their situation would do. And so like, it just allows you to be more fair and more.
Make more like three dimensional. Yeah, in my opinion.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: No, I agree, I agree.
So I don't know anything about script writing. What are the different types of script television writers should use to maybe improve their writing? For example, specs or pilots or.
And then what is each of these things used for?
[00:16:58] Speaker A: They're all used to either get you a job or get you an agent or a manager. So it's like it's showing what your work is. It's a writing sample for the most part. Obviously you want them to get made at some point, but like if it's a pilot, a spec, which is, you know, you're writing an episode of a existing show already, like that's a.
That's something that's just to get hired for. I'm sorry, that is something that is used to get hired off of.
But if you're writing a pilot, that's something. Yes. Still it's an example of what you can do. But it's also hopefully going to become a series one day.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: And which one should someone start with if they're just starting off in the industry, or does it matter?
[00:17:41] Speaker A: I don't think it matters as much. I think the spec is a better practice for in terms of like getting the mechanics down of writing. And so that when you do have the original idea, you. You're already in a format kind of, and so you don't have to.
It is very difficult to like operate from whole cloth. I mean, there's tons of books you can read about structure and you can find scripts everywhere so you see how it's done. But if you haven't been taught exactly what the, you know, minutiae are, it's tough to.
It's tough to just sit down and write your idea because it tends to be all over the place, especially if you're not a big pre writer. That's another huge thing I would say for people. Pre writing, like outlining character sketching, like, doing all that kind of stuff so that, like, you're not.
The white page is terrifying. So it's like, write as much before it's time to write. And that way you can just refer back to them as notes and as, like, a map roadmap for how to do the script. And you're not just like, well, where does this go? You should never be asking yourself, where does this go? If you're. If you're in the script phase, that that's a bad thing.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: When you were talking about spec riding, you usually take from a show that's already existing and you're just following maybe a character arc of some person on the show. Like, is it better to go in the direction that you think that character is going to go or just do something completely, like, crazy with the character?
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Well, yeah, that's a good question. Okay, so you want to show that you can mimic the voice of the show, but also have it stand out a little bit. So, like, something a little different within their framework or you go completely, you know, bat bleep crazy with it, which is some friends of mine. This was 20 years ago. I don't know if this would still work, but, like, they did a. This was like, in the early 2000s, they did a Golden Girls spec where that show had been off the air for, you know, 15 years, but. And they made it really, like, raunchy and really. And so it was something that, like, people got that when people got it to read, they were excited. Like, this is not just another, you know, Seinfeld episode that I'm. That are. That people are trying to mimic exactly like, they're actually.
This is a fun read. Like, it's something out of the ordinary. And they have had great career since
[00:19:48] Speaker B: then because, like, to your point, I was.
We were talking earlier, but, like, Like Bel Air, like how they took Bel Air. And it was like a completely different concept but, you know, still followed the same guidelines and everything. But.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but same setup and everything. Just a completely different take on it. And I thought Morgan is so, like, smart and so creative for doing that. And just, I don't know, I was just like, ah, yeah, that's why more
[00:20:12] Speaker B: people should do that.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Like, it's. Because it is. It's. It is a cool concept for something so. And like, and to, you know, obviously the 90s show showed the funny parts of it, but, like, yeah, there's some dark stuff that could happen in that same circumstance. So I love looking at something from a different angle. I think that's really just a fun exercise.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Do you think more people would have success with that if not necessarily just completely revamping old shows?
[00:20:37] Speaker A: But I, That's a good question. I. It. It's one of those things where it's like, yeah, it seems like such a great idea that everybody should do it, but then it's like, well, we don't want to do exactly what they just did.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: But. But. So I, Yeah, I guess if there was, if there was a whole new take on something that. That isn't exact. Isn't taking a comedy and turning it into a drama, like exactly what. You know, exactly what Bel Air did. Yes. But then I don't know what that looks like.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: That's true. That's true.
So how do writers actually get staffed on a show? What does your day to day look
[00:21:09] Speaker A: like, getting staffed on a show? Usually it comes from a couple different. So like, you can.
The showrunner can like have you in their head already and know that they want to hire you based on a personal relationship. Or you're like, when the show gets announced, like, the agents will send them a bunch of scripts. The showrunner. Sorry, the agents will send showrunner a bunch of scripts and they will hopefully pick one of those. They'll bring in for an interview. And if they like you and you fit what they need, then they will hire you.
It's just a much more competitive time right now because they're high. There's so many fewer shows. Like that streaming bubble kind of burst. Not kind of. That streaming bubble completely burst around like just kind of just before the strike in 2023. Is that when that was?
Yeah, but. And then since the strike, it's just been a wasteland. Is hyperbolic. But it has been very scant. It is definitely not the same amount of implement. There's not the same number of shows.
There's a. Usually shows have shorter orders even than before.
They have lower budgets and smaller rooms. And so like everything got smaller. And it's not just us, it's not just writers that are experiencing this, like everybody couple months. One of the big companies here is laying off thousands of people. And it's like mergers and all type. Yeah. And that's gonna happen again. So it's like I, It. It's just a. It's just a really difficult time. So that's the, that's the sort of way that. Ways that you can get into it or also working your way up from, you know, from the assistant track. So like, there'll be A writer's assistant who, like, will get promoted to a writer on the next season or whatever.
So that's, that's another way those are. Yeah, that's pretty much usually it.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: So I think through this conversation, we kind of understand how the system works. Let's talk a little bit about how you're actually being evaluated inside of it. So what's a mistake that can quietly maybe stall a writer's career, even if they're talented
[00:23:17] Speaker A: at the beginning of a career? I mean, there's all sorts of, like, there's all sorts of ways you can, you can ruin it. It along the way.
At the beginning, I would say, yeah, not writing enough. That's something that I struggled with. Was like, hey, I'm in early, early 20s, living in LA. I'm gonna go out and, you know, drink every couple nights. And my roommate, who is a writer, who is now an Academy Award nominated writer, was like, I'm gonna stay in and write. And so I should have done that more. So that's a good, that's a good thing. Like, yes, be young, have fun. But like one night a week instead of five, work on your craft.
Be disciplined. Be disciplined. Exactly.
And then, gosh, in the middle of it, I think it's one thing you can do to mess up your career is just getting a bad reputation for, like, treating people badly or like, not delivering. Like, when I say treat them, I don't mean like, you know, beating people up. I mean like, you know, are you on time for work? Are you contributing? Are you supporting other writers in the room? Like, this is. Once you get like, you're in a staff writing situation, you know, are you supporting other people in the room? Are you, are you a joy to have around? Do you turn in your stuff on time when it's, you know, when they've told you what the, what the parameters, are you delivering what they asked for? Are you like, like just basically meeting the moment all the time? And some people don't. And then, and it's not like, like it's not a character assassination. Sometimes it's like, yo, they got some stuff going on in their family that like, oh, that is preventing them from doing this thing. But then it's, then it becomes incumbent on you to like, share that with your bosses. So it's like, no, you know, no.
Yeah, just kind of be be aware of how you're being perceived. They say that every job isn't. Is an interview for your next job. And that's, that's probably the best because
[00:25:09] Speaker B: to your Point, like, as you were talking, I was like, that seems like pretty simple things to do. Like, how can anybody mess that up?
[00:25:14] Speaker A: But, yeah, no, but, but ye lives. And so, like, when it's tough to, it's sometimes tough to do that. Or, you know, I would also say, like, identifying types of people that you can work for, because right now, look, everybody's taking whatever job they can get.
But, like, if in a, in a better time, it's like, yo, I, I could take this job, but I would be better set up for success if I took a job with a showrunner who was a little bit more in my style of work. Whether it's like, somebody who really values, like, we're done every day at 4, or somebody who, you know, likes black people or, you know, like, there's a, there's a whole lot of things that you can, that you can suss out from a, from a showrunner meeting where you're like, I would, I want this job because I would like money, but I don't think I'm gonna do great there. So it becomes like, if you can be choosy, be choosy.
Hopefully there's a time soon where we could be choosy again, but. Amen.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: So when a writer gets notes on a specific project, how should they approach rewriting in a way that actually improves their chances of getting hired again?
[00:26:26] Speaker A: I would say first, like, you get the notes.
My process is I get the notes and then I scream about what an idiot the person who gave me the notes are and how they don't get it and what's wrong with this country and what's wrong with this industry. And then I think, how ridiculous, you know, I, I, I. Why don't they just understand what good storytelling is? And then I leave it alone. And the next day I look at them again, I'm like, oh, I see what they were talking about. That makes sense. Okay. Or, yeah, like, it's just get the, get the angry artist out of.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: You got it.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Look at it. Don't. I would never, I would say never do notes the day they're given to you.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Sleep on it. Just to kind of, if you have the luxury of, of time as if you're doing broadcast, you know, tv, like, like it might have to be done the next day, but so ideally, sleep on it.
Try to, if the notes aren't clear to you, ask questions like, call back and ask. Be like, hey, I don't quite understand this.
If you try to understand what the note behind the note is. And also Understand the methodology that the person giving you notes uses and also consider the inherent biases that. That that note giver may have. So, like an example, somebody might find something really, you know, offensive.
But, but if. And then you learn, you know, if they're like a super crazy religious person, then it's like, okay, that person is finding this thing offensive. But I don't think the broader community, you know what I mean? I don't think the broader world defined offense. So it's like, understand what, what the biases are that they have and then try to, like, negotiate with them. And then also the most important part is like, we get focused on, okay, I need to do these notes so that I can turn this in and, like, get the A.
But you do have to, like, keep a broader. Like, you have to zoom back out and look at how all those notes together are affecting the final product. And if it starts to be, if you notice the project morphing into a different thing, you gotta. You need to have a talk with whoever's getting, giving you the notes.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: And I was gonna ask, like, do you have to take the notes?
[00:28:37] Speaker A: You. They almost always say you don't, but it, it, it depends. It depends on who you're working for.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:28:44] Speaker A: And for me, it's like, look, I'll. I'll take a note. I'll take any note. But if I don't agree with the note, then we have to have a conversation because I can't write it if I don't agree it, Agree with it. If I don't believe in it, I don't know how to tell. Like, it will seem fake, because it is fake, because I, I don't understand it. But if you can, like, like, you know, and sometimes it'll happen where you'll get the note. They, you know, changed Bob's name to Dan. And you're like, all right, but here's why I liked the name Bob and blah, blah. And then we'll have a conversation about it and they'll be like, oh, okay, I didn't know that's what you were going for. Okay, then maybe Dan's not it, but, you know, Kyle or whatever it is, like, that's a. There. That spirit of collaborative negotiation, I think, is. Is a good, good way to approach it. But again, you gotta zoom back out and be like, yo, does that mess up my thing? Cause if it does, then it's incumbent on you to explain to the note giver that doing that will cause this ripple effect in the project. And that's not what we want. So, like, let's talk about a way to fix the problem that you're identifying or that you're feeling, but without through a different methodology.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Well, that's interesting. I didn't know that.
So I wanna talk about the future of this industry right now.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: You sure?
[00:30:00] Speaker B: Some advice, some tidbits for some folks. So if somebody wants to become a writer right now, and I know that you mentioned, like, you know, hey, it's important to write it like every day. Maybe not realistic, but, you know, it's important to write every day. How should they stay competitive or what should they be doing to stay competitive in order to like make it in this industry competitive?
[00:30:19] Speaker A: I think it's just, it's like not having a plan B has helped for me.
I don't really. I'm not really trained for anything else.
I know that it's super.
Literally, I meant I majored in television, radio and film. And so, like, I don't know what else to do.
So I would also say like, like be getting feedback a lot. Like don't, you know, don't sit on scripts. Like have people check them out. Have people, if you have connections to people in the industry, try to have them check it out. You know, like, like constantly be getting feedback because that'll make you get better. And it's also like just kind of audience research in a way. You're sort of. You're seeing how your stuff lands to people.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: What's something that writers focused maybe too much on that's really not helping their career at all or what should they replace it with?
[00:31:13] Speaker A: I actually don't have an answer for that.
I don't know. I think I.
I think one thing writers do do that is helpful sometimes is, is social media.
I don't like it myself because I. My sense of humor is very weird and it's very easy to take wrong a joke that I make online. And so I, I just like to keep my stuff long form where I can go over it a couple times and you know, like, have people weigh in before it gets disseminated widely. I don't need to, I don't need to have my unfiltered thoughts out there all the time. I'll put it that way. So I think, I think some people can be hurt. Maybe that's a way people can be hurt by like by not by not thinking through the things that they put out there.
I don't know. I. That's a, that's a. I'm fishing. I don't. I don't really have a strong answer for that.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: No, I love it. I love it. Transparency.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Maybe. Looking back, is there anything that you wish that you knew early in your
[00:32:09] Speaker A: career that you know now besides write more?
I think write stuff that's authentically you. Not what you think the. The.
The buyers or the audience or the. Whatever are looking for.
Because if you're like, if you're writing to the market, you're. You're behind. Because, like, if you're trying to emulate this Abbott elementary, like, that's on its fifth season. So it's like, you know, they're. They're. It. There's a thousand duplicates of that out there now. So, like, just write. What's. Write. You write stuff you know about or stuff that you've researched heavily and that. That will be. Again, just don't write. I need a workplace comedy. Like, write something that you think is funny with characters that you love.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Have you ever seen. Have you ever watched cross
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Amazon? Yeah, I. 1. I sell the pilot.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: You know what I thought was interesting? Like, the. So they're. They wrote a lot of stuff that's kind of happening now with the administration. And I was like, just to be able to see that. I don't know how long ago they wrote that, but just said, like, have the foresight to, like, oh, we're gonna write something that's like, we're gonna write something that's outrageous, but that's actually happening right now. It's crazy to me. So just to hear you talk about, like. Like, don't try to write trends, but, like, write something you know about.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: But it's really. It's like, you know, fashion, I guess, kind of like, you don't want to dress like everybody else, but, you know, you want to throw your own flavor at it. You want to, like, you know, show your individuality.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
So looking at writing, how do you see the industry shifting for writers in the next few years?
[00:33:53] Speaker A: I have no idea. And it's. That's what keeps me up at night. Like, I don't know where we are going right now. I know, Like. Like, they're making so much less television. They're. They're still making movies, but it's. Then there's a marketing issue where, like, people, you know, people don't really always know when things are coming out. I don't even know when things are coming out. And I'm in the industry and constantly consuming stuff, and I'm like, that movie came out last year. How the hell did I not know about that.
Or they. Or sometimes they'll play the trailer so far in advance of the movie that you kind of in your brain think it already came out so that you missed it and you're like, anyway, maybe that's just my. My small brain. But it.
Gosh, like, because there's so, like, micro dramas, you know, the verticals, because those are coming up and becoming such a thing.
Because, like, brands are starting to, like, who's it? Dick's Sporting Goods started a production entity or, like, like a mini studio or something. So, like, it is changing so quickly. I don't know what it's gonna look like. But I, I will say that just those couple examples are like, like, it's not just in the realm of television and film. Like, there are adaptations that tech have birthed that are ways to get into the industry or ways to get your stories told.
Yeah, yeah, but, sorry, the big answer is I don't know. And I guess I'm clinging to the way things have been done since I've been coming up, and that's not smart. Like, I need to be paying attention. We need to be paying attention to how things are evolving and, you know, react accordingly.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: Do you think there's a show right now, like, that whose writing is, like, just killing it or, like, really doing what they need to do?
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yes. And I feel weird because, like, some, like, I don't want to feel like I'm doing a commercial for people because, like, Because I know this dude, but, like, shout them out. I think the Boys on Amazon is so spectacular. It's like, it's.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: That is crazy. Like, I just started, like, tuning in at some episodes and I'm like, yeah, it's.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: It's wild. Yeah, it's. What? But it's. But there's very, like, real human stories at the core of all that craziness. And I think being able to toe the line between those two things is really impressive.
At. We mentioned Abbott. Like, I, I. That's just a perfect show.
It's. It's hilarious. And it's also has a ton of heart. And, like, just, just all the performances are top notch.
I'm trying to think, what else have I been consuming lately?
I loved Heated Rivalry. That was my jam. I just taught that in my class, and so it was fun. We were just talking about that yesterday.
Yeah, I think I'd say those are my three that I've noticed that are really, really getting it.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: I mean, outside of those, are there any ones that you might want to do in the future or Right on in the future.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: Feature any of them? Yeah, like, they're. They're all places that would be fantastic to write for.
But, yeah, I think it's. I think it's.
I think there's. There's a lot of good programming out there. I wish there were more comedy shows out there. That's what's struggling.
CBS just. Just canceled dmv. Yeah. Which I thought was. I was. I was enjoying that show. I really liked it.
So. Yeah, there's, like. I do wish that there were. Especially now. I feel like it is so dark out there that, like, people gotta laugh. Like, you have to. We have to at least be putting that stuff out there so that you're surfing through Hulu or whatever. Like, that looks funny. Cool. Please, please give me something to take my mind off of whatever craziness is happening that day.
So, yeah, I do hope that the industry catches up to that.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Would you try drama?
[00:37:34] Speaker A: I would, but it would be like a. It'd have to be, like, what they call a soft hour or, like. Like, what's the big show now? High potential.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: Oh, I know what you're talking about.
Highly high. It's not highly potential. Wait, no, I don't know.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Anyway, with Caitlin Olson. The Caitlin Olson show. Yeah.
That's like a funny one hour. So, like, it would have to be something like that. I don't think I could do just drama. Like, I mean, I'm sure I have the ability to do it, but I don't think it would excite me.
[00:38:04] Speaker B: Nice. So I know earlier we talked about just, like, keeping your blinders up, staying in your lane. What does rejection actually feel like at your level? Or, like, what do you do to kind of keep on track and not allow rejection to, you know, stop you from pressing forward?
[00:38:19] Speaker A: It. It feels now worse than it used to feel.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Really?
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Yeah, because before it was kind of. You just have that sort of invincibility of youth feeling. And so you're like, oh, I'm fine. I'll do it.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: I'll just send it to another person, like. Or I'll just, you know, go. I'll just get another job.
But as you get older and as you start to, like, really pour more of yourself into the work, the rejection feels a lot more like a rejection of you than of the project or the pitch or the script or the whatever. Because you're like, you know, not only. I don't. I never like to measure things in terms of, like, time spent, because who cares if it doesn't, like, Evoke emotion or, like, you know, connect with people in a real way, then it doesn't matter.
But so when you have, like, really poured a lot of yourself into it and, and put experiences of that in from your life into it, or are putting. Trying to put something out there that you wish you had seen when you were younger, like, there's all these really emotional parts about writing. And so when that. When that. When you get rejected from that, that's tough.
How do I keep it going? I mean, you just have to. You just got to, like, that's the thing. I always complain to people in my life, like, oh, it sucks. I got rejected from this and that and then that. And they're like, hey, man, don't get discouraged. Keep it up. Hang in there. You're gonna. I was like, no, no, I'm gonna.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I know this.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: I'm gonna hang in. I'm just whining. I, like, I just need to whine because it's. It hurts, you know? Of course. And so, like, I, I. Yes, I guess that's the. That's what keeps me going is that you're not gonna get free hits on me industry. So it's like, I'm gonna to stay here until I die.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: I heard that. I mean, you said it earlier, like, I have no plan B. This is it. So look, we got to make this.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: We got to make this work. Yeah, that's. That's what keeps me going. I love that.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Love it.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: So you know what else keeps me going is finding new stuff on to watch that is really enticing or, like. Or discovering some new, like, hobby or some new, like, thing out there like that. That really is nice to keep your mind off of stuff.
[00:40:24] Speaker B: Well, it's a. What's. What's a new hobby? What's a new.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: Well, like, I don't do this, but, like, sorry, there's a.
Travel is my thing. I. Yeah, I love travel, but the problem with travel is it costs a lot.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: It costs a lot of money. So, like, finding cool, Like, I love to find a little cool place that's like two hours away and go for a weekend or something like that. Change of scenery, new, new place to eat. Yeah, like. Like that always feels good.
Or, you know, even traveling back to Delaware, hanging out with my parents. Like, that feels. Feels great.
So, yeah, like, and we're lucky now we have. We probably have friends in 20American cities, each of us, so it's nice to be like, hey, friend, I'm coming this week. Let's play. Let's do a weekend. I'm coming to you and like, you know.
Yeah, yeah, come stay at your house. That, that cuts down on the. On lodging costs and everything. So, like, yeah, just try to change your environment a little bit. That really helps me.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: I love that. That's beautiful.
So tell me about maybe a mistake that you've made and how did you grow from that mistake?
[00:41:28] Speaker A: Mistake I made once was arguing a point too much with a showrunner. Like, you usually, if the showrunner has an idea or whatever, something has been agreed upon and you're like, hey, that doesn't work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And he or she is like, well, that's what we're doing. And. And I'm like, but blah, blah, blah. Like, but. And I went back like three times, like, and it. Because it was. To me, it was such an egregious lapse in logic that I was like, this is. We're going to regret this later. And it didn't matter. It. All it did was piss off my boss.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's what I mean. Like, well, how are you. Like, how can you advocate for something? Like, if you really.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: If you really.
Then I would say present the showrunner with, hey, hey, this is how I think this might screw us.
Here's a. That's important. Pitch an alternative. Like, show me a solution. Don't just bring up a problem. So, like, pitch, pitch a way to fix it.
If they.
They'll do a couple of things. They'll either say, no, we're doing it the way I said, or they'll say, I see the problem, but I don't like your pitch. Come up with a different pitch.
Or they'll say, like, you know, actually, that's pretty much it. Those are, Those are pretty much the only two options. So like it, but just don't go back. Don't keep hitting, beating the dead horse, you know. Yeah, it's very. Because a showrunner friend of mine gave me the advice of, like, when you're showrunning, there's so many things coming at you. You're getting. You might have to make like a thousand decisions a day.
So when somebody is not trusting you to make that, not trusting your decision that you've made and is holding you back from moving forward on a thing. It's like you're stopping.
Yeah, it's a word right there. Right. And so she was like, don't do that basically, even if it's. And that's the thing. And I've done this a Couple times. The first time I did it was stupid. The second time I did it was actually the right thing to do.
I don't want to get too specific, but, like, it. I. I do think it hurt me in the end, but it was. It was also, like. It was a topic that was very close to my heart and my identity and my experience.
And so it was like arguing. I'm arguing with the person for who doesn't have that identity and that experience. And so I'm like, I know you're the boss, but in this, I'm the expert. And so, like. And if we're. If my name's gonna be on this, if this is going to be representing my community, I think here's how it should go. And that. And it was righteous, but stupid.
I don't feel bad about doing it. I don't think it was the right thing to do.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: I mean, do you think people. So would you say. Or do you think people should bother doing that, like, advocating for themselves?
[00:44:22] Speaker A: I think you should definitely advocate for yourself. I think, like. Like, it depends. It's. It's. How many back and forths do you do?
[00:44:29] Speaker B: Got it.
[00:44:29] Speaker A: I think it's like, Max two.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Say Max.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Here's the thing. Blah, blah, blah. No, actually, I think, blah, blah, blah. Okay, just let me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Let me further. Whatever. And then. And also in that second go, you have to bring new information. You have to. You can't just repeat the first argument. You have to, like, give another example. You remind them of your expertise in this area.
And after the second one, you just gotta take the L. Yeah.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: That's sad, though.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: It is. It's super sad. But. And especially, like, if you're passionate about the story, if you're passionate about storytelling in general, it's sad. If you're passionate about that particular element.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: That topic. Yeah. Then it's extra sad. And then especially if you have to see it later.
Done badly. Not badly done.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: Not in the way. Not in the way that you envisioned.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Then it's like. It's just like. All right, come on, man.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
So quick question. If someone handed you a script today, what elements in that script would you think would make it hireable?
What makes it a good script?
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Well, there's. So those are two different things. What makes it a good script is like, do you know all the. You have all the mechanics down. Like, there's not. There's not a whole. There's not Like a.
Act one isn't three times as long as Act Two. Like, just little stuff like that. You know what I mean?
Characters are very clearly developed. Voice, like, voices are different from one another on the page. If it's a comedy, am I laughing? That's. That's important.
I would say yes. So that's like. That's like what makes the script good. And then in terms of higher ability, it's. Does this person do. I feel like this person is close enough to my voice that they can write my show, but different enough that they will add an element to the. To the soup that is a different flavor from mine, you know, and do. And that's the thing when you're talking about, like, staffing and getting picked. Like, showrunners have all these different. Different scripts that they're reading, but they also have all these different, like, needs in the room. So it's like, I need a. I need a person who's great with jokes. I need a person who, you know, if this is. This is. Say this is a different world. I need a person who went to an hbcu. I need somebody who can. Who can cover set for me if I got. If I don't want to go to set that day or if I'm too busy to go to set that day. Somebody who I know can talk to the director, work with the actors, do all that kind of stuff, and, like, be my proxy there. There.
You know, I also need a. I need a Gen Z person because we have a young character, and I really want to make sure we nail that voice. So it's like, you don't. You don't always lose the job because your script isn't good. It's just they might have somebody else. Who's that? Who plays that position better than you do.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: Okay, so I know earlier you talked about, like, finding your voice. What does that actually look like on the page? Like, how do you know if you found your voice?
[00:47:37] Speaker A: I. It's. It's. I hate this answer because it's like, it is external feedback. Like, when I. I don't know that I found my voice until I hear people saying, I really hear you in the script. Or like, when you. When I. When I read. And it only can come from people who know you. That's the other side. You have to. People who know you, who are able to, like, who know what a good script is, have to be like, you know, hey, I think you really have found your thing. And I remember hearing that from a couple of people and being like, okay, good. Now I. Cause, like, it's in a. Otherwise it's in a vacuum. Like, if I wrote it, I assume it's my voice. You know what I mean? But I think, like, if I'm writing something I'm not passionate about, I'm not coming across in it. If I'm trying to, hey, I need a workplace comedy, and I'm just throwing some workplace stuff together that might not be my. That might not have my full voice in it. If I'm trying to mimic somebody else's style, it doesn't. Might not have my full voice in it.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: And before we wrap it up, what kind of legacy do you want to leave behind when it comes to your writing?
[00:48:36] Speaker A: That somebody who is like me was like a closeted child in Wilmington, Delaware, who's watching tv is like, yo, I feel either seen by this, like, I see somebody who represents me, or I see somebody who represents who I want to be when I grow up, or people who, like, are having a rough time and, you know, whatever they've come from in their day, that's really brought them down. If they're like, yo, I'm just going to put on Chuck's show and just feel good, that's like, I mean, what more can you ask for?
[00:49:11] Speaker B: I love that. Well, thank you so much, Chuck. I appreciate you joining inside the industry. Today's conversation has been amazing. I really appreciate you. You're just funny. I love Kiki.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: And with you, I know it's always fun because I'm like, I want to be completely honest. Like, I want to spill my guts. But then I'm like, I gotta be.
I gotta be professional. That back in a little bit. So, yeah, I do.
I try to give you as much as I possibly can without ruining my career, if that makes sense. I love it.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: I love it. Thank you. Thank you.
Also, before we wrap, I want to play two games with you.
So the first game is called Real Talk or Industry Cap. So I'm going to give you a statement, and you're going to tell me if you think it's industry cap or facts, and then why you think that. Ready to go?
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:49:55] Speaker B: Let's do it. Okay. Collaboration makes scripts better. Better.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's tough. Because, like, it depends on the situation. It depends on the collaborator. I would say, in a perfect world, facts.
But if you are. If you're working with the wrong collaborators, it's going to make the project worse. If you're working with somebody who doesn't fully understand what your vision is or somebody who has an agenda that is separate from making this the best, it has to be Be then it's not making it better.
But ideally I've. And I've been in both situations.
[00:50:32] Speaker B: A great script can sell itself.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: I think that is facts because I mean it has to be facts because like people get discovered all the time. Like there's all like there's debut filmmakers and debut writers selling stuff stuff, getting stuff made all the time.
It certainly becomes a lot easier once you're already an established name.
It becomes easier. I mean even like, like somebody at my, at my level, me, I have a hard time selling something and so like it's not always.
Yeah, it's not, it's not always just the script but like if, if, yeah, if that script is magic and it's undeniable, then yes, but I, it's really hard to write those because what's undeniable to you is not. Yeah, exactly. Not undeniable to them. The three companies that buy things.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. You have to write every day to. Well, you said that you have to write every day to be a successful writer.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I say that's Cap. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't think, I mean again, I think you do need to be writing all the time. But if you skip a. It's like the gym. If you skip a day, kill yourself over, you know, like it's you, you holding yourself to that high a standard, can it just set you up for, for, for failure and self disappointment? So it's like, yeah, always be, always be working on something for sure.
But writing every day. I mean, you know, some days, some days you don't feel like. Some days you can't. You will sit at the T in front of your computer and stare at it and it's just laughing at you. And like, or some days you're like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. I just have to run these errands first. And you know how errands go in la. That could be. Yeah, you. It could be sundown before you actually get back home. So like it, it, it. Give yourself some grace.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: No, grace is my word. And lastly, you need reps, agents or managers to get real opportunities.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: I think that is facts.
Unfortunately.
The only way that, that I'd say that was Cap is if, like if you are working, like I said, in a support staff, if you're an assistant and you're, you know, you're able to get it in front of, of decision makers then and you've done that without, without reps or if you have a social media presence that like, has X amount of followers. And then you can say, like, people will find you based on that. But otherwise. Yeah. Trad the. Traditionally speaking, you need it.
[00:52:59] Speaker B: Okay, nice.
[00:53:00] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Because also people don't. A lot of companies won't take unsolicited. Oh, that's true.
[00:53:05] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Material. It has to come for. For, like, legal protection. It has to come from an agent or manager. So. Yes. Facts.
Well, thank you so much we got back there. Yeah.
[00:53:14] Speaker B: Thanks for so much for playing Real Talk or Industry Gap. And the second game is inside your industry bag. So I have a couple questions. Just pull out one.
And it's just a random question that
[00:53:27] Speaker A: I want to show you that was next to me. Yeah, I was wondering what that was.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: What? We got
[00:53:31] Speaker A: the job you thought would change your life, but didn't. That's a great question.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Give me the T. I want to
[00:53:37] Speaker A: give you an answer, but it's kind of like everyone. Every single project you think is going to change your life, and it doesn't because you need the next project in order to, like, capitalize on whatever momentum you've gotten from the first one.
So.
But I guess I do want to give you a solid answer, so I will say.
Stepsisters by Netflix movie. I expected good movie stuff to be falling out of the sky.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially working for Netflix. They'd be just spitting stuff out all the time.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Right. Exactly.
But I'm. I'm lucky enough to, like, have worked with directors and stuff that I'm proud of everything that's out there. So I'm not like, oh, this is a. This is gonna. This is bad for my career. Like, I don't have that feeling about anything, which is great.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: Nice. Well, thank you. Thanks for playing.
[00:54:25] Speaker A: No problem. No problem.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Chuck Heyward. No matter where you are in your journey, we're here to be your resource. If this conversation sparks something special for you, make sure to, like, subscribe and share and drop a comment below, letting us know what conversations you'd like to see next. I'm your host, Ariana Drummond. See you inside the industry.
